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	<title>Comments on: More Pressure to Remove Leveling for MMO&#8217;s</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?feed=rss2&#038;p=316" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316</link>
	<description>MMORPG design &#38; commentary</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 07:41:56 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Level up, l&#8217;enfer du devoir (2/2) &#124; MMO Focus</title>
		<link>http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316&#038;cpage=1#comment-9031</link>
		<dc:creator>Level up, l&#8217;enfer du devoir (2/2) &#124; MMO Focus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jul 2010 11:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316#comment-9031</guid>
		<description>[...] La pression se fait d&#8217;ailleurs de plus en plus forte sur les contraintes liées au level up, notamment lorsque la création de rerolls accapare une part croissante du temps de jeu. Les joueurs sont peu enthousiastes à l&#8217;idée de devoir accomplir à nouveau toute la montée en niveau&#8230; Wolfshead se fait l&#8217;écho de la problématique dans un article sur son blog, More Pressure to Remove Leveling for MMO’s. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] La pression se fait d&#8217;ailleurs de plus en plus forte sur les contraintes liées au level up, notamment lorsque la création de rerolls accapare une part croissante du temps de jeu. Les joueurs sont peu enthousiastes à l&#8217;idée de devoir accomplir à nouveau toute la montée en niveau&#8230; Wolfshead se fait l&#8217;écho de la problématique dans un article sur son blog, More Pressure to Remove Leveling for MMO’s. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: My 2 Copper - Game design opinions, commentary, and ideas</title>
		<link>http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316&#038;cpage=1#comment-7176</link>
		<dc:creator>My 2 Copper - Game design opinions, commentary, and ideas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 07:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316#comment-7176</guid>
		<description>[...] article is in direct response to this thoughtful post over at Wolfshead Online.  &#8220;It seems to me that the real problem that is causing the clamor for the removal of leveling [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] article is in direct response to this thoughtful post over at Wolfshead Online.  &#8220;It seems to me that the real problem that is causing the clamor for the removal of leveling [...]</p>
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		<title>By: RomaGoth</title>
		<link>http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316&#038;cpage=1#comment-7173</link>
		<dc:creator>RomaGoth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 19:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316#comment-7173</guid>
		<description>@Vlad

I feel your pain.  In your mid-30&#039;s the choices are slim and more than likely you are stuck in Stranglethorn Vale for what seems an eternity.  Of course, there is the RAF program that Blizzard has now implemented to further bloat their subscription base.  You can go that route and get some free levels in addition to another mount.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Vlad</p>
<p>I feel your pain.  In your mid-30&#8217;s the choices are slim and more than likely you are stuck in Stranglethorn Vale for what seems an eternity.  Of course, there is the RAF program that Blizzard has now implemented to further bloat their subscription base.  You can go that route and get some free levels in addition to another mount&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: *vlad*</title>
		<link>http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316&#038;cpage=1#comment-7172</link>
		<dc:creator>*vlad*</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316#comment-7172</guid>
		<description>I too would prefer to skip mid-levels. 
I&#039;ve recently created a Paladin character on WoW, and I have enjoyed the first 20 levels a lot. Yes, I have done all these quests beofre numerous times, but they are still fun.
My character is now in the mid-30s, and I am not liking the choices of where I have to go next. WTB Boost to lv 50.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too would prefer to skip mid-levels.<br />
I&#8217;ve recently created a Paladin character on WoW, and I have enjoyed the first 20 levels a lot. Yes, I have done all these quests beofre numerous times, but they are still fun.<br />
My character is now in the mid-30s, and I am not liking the choices of where I have to go next. WTB Boost to lv 50.</p>
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		<title>By: Saylah</title>
		<link>http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316&#038;cpage=1#comment-7162</link>
		<dc:creator>Saylah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:16:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316#comment-7162</guid>
		<description>LOL about alts having rights!  Good one.  However, I think in WOW&#039;s case so many players having so many alts is a symptom of other things like having an end-game that is a complete grind and it has the nerve to reset itself on top it.  People have been playing WOW a long time and some of them have gone that long because of alts.  It&#039;s not surprising that they&#039;d be concerned about leveling them.

If Blizzard has increase the amount of effort/XP required to level by providing adequate content then all is well and good.  If the % of times you need to do the same quest or instance to gain your levels hasn&#039;t changed, then they have nothing to complain about.  However, if this extra effort and XP comes by doing repeating instances or repeatable quests more times, then they have every right to be concerned.  That would be a bold cop-out on Blizzards&#039;s part to stretch the content without increasing its depth.  But there&#039;s no way for players to actually do the math to know if that&#039;s what is now expected. 

What I&#039;m saying is if they developed the same amount of content they did to move players 10 levels in WoTLK as they did for the 10 levels in TBC, but increased the XP required to gain those 10 levels, it means that people will be forced to re-do the same content (instances) more times and there&#039;s nothing exciting about that prospect the first time, let alone doing it for alts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL about alts having rights!  Good one.  However, I think in WOW&#8217;s case so many players having so many alts is a symptom of other things like having an end-game that is a complete grind and it has the nerve to reset itself on top it.  People have been playing WOW a long time and some of them have gone that long because of alts.  It&#8217;s not surprising that they&#8217;d be concerned about leveling them.</p>
<p>If Blizzard has increase the amount of effort/XP required to level by providing adequate content then all is well and good.  If the % of times you need to do the same quest or instance to gain your levels hasn&#8217;t changed, then they have nothing to complain about.  However, if this extra effort and XP comes by doing repeating instances or repeatable quests more times, then they have every right to be concerned.  That would be a bold cop-out on Blizzards&#8217;s part to stretch the content without increasing its depth.  But there&#8217;s no way for players to actually do the math to know if that&#8217;s what is now expected. </p>
<p>What I&#8217;m saying is if they developed the same amount of content they did to move players 10 levels in WoTLK as they did for the 10 levels in TBC, but increased the XP required to gain those 10 levels, it means that people will be forced to re-do the same content (instances) more times and there&#8217;s nothing exciting about that prospect the first time, let alone doing it for alts.</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316&#038;cpage=1#comment-7161</link>
		<dc:creator>Tesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316#comment-7161</guid>
		<description>Roma,
Regarding the community, I played on a new account last month, and found some fairly helpful people in the Night Elf newbie zones.  I&#039;m not sure if they were just alts of experienced players or truly new people, but I never ran into antagonistic players.  They might also have been too busy grinding in some cases, but I did run into some people who seemed genuinely new, and who seemed to be enjoying themselves.  A few even wanted to group or just play cooperatively, apparently just for the fun of it.

The endgame raiders seem to be the most... vocal, with the greatest sense of entitlement, largely due to the sense that they have &quot;invested&quot; in their characters, both in time and in money.  (Which is part of my rant against the subscription model, incidentally... a rant that I still need to write in full.)

The Big Bear Butt Blogger has noted his intention to take the 70-80 journey at a relatively leisurely pace, as have other bloggers I&#039;ve read lately.  In line with that, I still think that Blizzard should horizontally expand the &quot;old world&quot; and encourage &quot;sniffing the roses&quot;, but that may well mean more work than they want to get involved with, especially with the next-gen MMO, Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 in the works.  Of course, I think they should focus on the &quot;old world&quot; of WoW, but I suspect that they are content to let the endgame raiders monetize the game at this point, counting on inertia and the sense of investment to maintain revenue.

Really, MMOs can only stay &quot;live&quot; for so long.  The romantic image of a persistent online world, always on, always living, just doesn&#039;t fit into the business world, Moore&#039;s Law, or the ever-shifting tastes of gamers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roma,<br />
Regarding the community, I played on a new account last month, and found some fairly helpful people in the Night Elf newbie zones.  I&#8217;m not sure if they were just alts of experienced players or truly new people, but I never ran into antagonistic players.  They might also have been too busy grinding in some cases, but I did run into some people who seemed genuinely new, and who seemed to be enjoying themselves.  A few even wanted to group or just play cooperatively, apparently just for the fun of it.</p>
<p>The endgame raiders seem to be the most&#8230; vocal, with the greatest sense of entitlement, largely due to the sense that they have &#8220;invested&#8221; in their characters, both in time and in money.  (Which is part of my rant against the subscription model, incidentally&#8230; a rant that I still need to write in full.)</p>
<p>The Big Bear Butt Blogger has noted his intention to take the 70-80 journey at a relatively leisurely pace, as have other bloggers I&#8217;ve read lately.  In line with that, I still think that Blizzard should horizontally expand the &#8220;old world&#8221; and encourage &#8220;sniffing the roses&#8221;, but that may well mean more work than they want to get involved with, especially with the next-gen MMO, Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 in the works.  Of course, I think they should focus on the &#8220;old world&#8221; of WoW, but I suspect that they are content to let the endgame raiders monetize the game at this point, counting on inertia and the sense of investment to maintain revenue.</p>
<p>Really, MMOs can only stay &#8220;live&#8221; for so long.  The romantic image of a persistent online world, always on, always living, just doesn&#8217;t fit into the business world, Moore&#8217;s Law, or the ever-shifting tastes of gamers.</p>
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		<title>By: RomaGoth</title>
		<link>http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316&#038;cpage=1#comment-7159</link>
		<dc:creator>RomaGoth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316#comment-7159</guid>
		<description>I am really having a hard time right now deciding if I want to play the expansion or not.  I started playing LOTRO again after a year away from it (I was in the BETA) and I am finding it enjoyable.  At the same time, I have two 70&#039;s and a 60 in WoW that I have invested the last 1 1/2 into, it is difficult to walk away from them even if they are not all purpled out.

Everytime I see comments such as the ones from the BETA testers, I die a little on the inside, knowing that Blizzard is doing their best to just make money, thus dumbing down this mmo even further.  It is frustrating as someone who likes the characters, does not want to level up more alts, but wants a fairly mature player base to share the gaming experience with.  Is it me, or has the WoW community in general gotten younger (and subsequently, sorry to say, dumber)?

Roma</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am really having a hard time right now deciding if I want to play the expansion or not.  I started playing LOTRO again after a year away from it (I was in the BETA) and I am finding it enjoyable.  At the same time, I have two 70&#8217;s and a 60 in WoW that I have invested the last 1 1/2 into, it is difficult to walk away from them even if they are not all purpled out.</p>
<p>Everytime I see comments such as the ones from the BETA testers, I die a little on the inside, knowing that Blizzard is doing their best to just make money, thus dumbing down this mmo even further.  It is frustrating as someone who likes the characters, does not want to level up more alts, but wants a fairly mature player base to share the gaming experience with.  Is it me, or has the WoW community in general gotten younger (and subsequently, sorry to say, dumber)?</p>
<p>Roma</p>
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		<title>By: Wolfshead</title>
		<link>http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316&#038;cpage=1#comment-7157</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolfshead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316#comment-7157</guid>
		<description>@Saylah: The next big MMO will be the one that figures out how to do two things:

1) gives each player a personalized experience that lets the player make their own story -- not the one quest/storyline fits all model of WoW

2) allows the player to meaningfully impact and change a dynamic world

The reason why content is so boring and tedious for players that want to roll alts is because they must do all of the same quests that their main did -- with very few exceptions. If WoW had no quests then the gaming experience would be much more open ended for the player. Instead of being told where to go and what to kill by a NPC questgiver, the player would start acting with autonomny and independence. The player assumes ownership over her the destiny of her avatar instead of blindly doing the bidding of scripted questgivers.

On dailies, I certainly agree with you there. They were created as a band-aid solution to thwarting gold farming (Kaplan&#039;s words at last year&#039;s Blizzcon). For me, the cure is much worse then the disease as it literally forces people to complete them each day just so they don&#039;t fall behind economically.

@RomaGoth: I too am appalled at the attitude of many of the people complaining about the increase in experience required in WotLK. Let&#039;s not forget, these are supposed to be &quot;testers&quot;; people who are there to *gasp* test. They should be a bit hardier and more resilient then the average player. It&#039;s sad to see how lazy players have become as they really seem to feel they are entitled to easy leveling.

Another interesting development is that many testers now are using the &quot;but I&#039;ve got a wife and kids to feed&quot; argument. Translation: they have a stable of alts that they are expecting to level to 80. How can they be expected to have all of their alts reach the level cap if the experience required is so much greater then before? Sure this sounds ridiculous but here we have a clear indication of how spoiled players have become. Their alts have &quot;rights&quot; now it seems! And an easy pathway to the level cap is one of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Saylah: The next big MMO will be the one that figures out how to do two things:</p>
<p>1) gives each player a personalized experience that lets the player make their own story &#8212; not the one quest/storyline fits all model of WoW</p>
<p>2) allows the player to meaningfully impact and change a dynamic world</p>
<p>The reason why content is so boring and tedious for players that want to roll alts is because they must do all of the same quests that their main did &#8212; with very few exceptions. If WoW had no quests then the gaming experience would be much more open ended for the player. Instead of being told where to go and what to kill by a NPC questgiver, the player would start acting with autonomny and independence. The player assumes ownership over her the destiny of her avatar instead of blindly doing the bidding of scripted questgivers.</p>
<p>On dailies, I certainly agree with you there. They were created as a band-aid solution to thwarting gold farming (Kaplan&#8217;s words at last year&#8217;s Blizzcon). For me, the cure is much worse then the disease as it literally forces people to complete them each day just so they don&#8217;t fall behind economically.</p>
<p>@RomaGoth: I too am appalled at the attitude of many of the people complaining about the increase in experience required in WotLK. Let&#8217;s not forget, these are supposed to be &#8220;testers&#8221;; people who are there to *gasp* test. They should be a bit hardier and more resilient then the average player. It&#8217;s sad to see how lazy players have become as they really seem to feel they are entitled to easy leveling.</p>
<p>Another interesting development is that many testers now are using the &#8220;but I&#8217;ve got a wife and kids to feed&#8221; argument. Translation: they have a stable of alts that they are expecting to level to 80. How can they be expected to have all of their alts reach the level cap if the experience required is so much greater then before? Sure this sounds ridiculous but here we have a clear indication of how spoiled players have become. Their alts have &#8220;rights&#8221; now it seems! And an easy pathway to the level cap is one of them.</p>
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		<title>By: RomaGoth</title>
		<link>http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316&#038;cpage=1#comment-7156</link>
		<dc:creator>RomaGoth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 23:33:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316#comment-7156</guid>
		<description>Wow.  After reading some of the comments by beta testers from your link above, I am seriously ready to /quit wow now.  They are part of the reason I no longer find WoW fun.  Crying about the heavy leveling curve.  Good grief.  One guy wanted the changes to experience to be reversed and for him to get the levels that he WOULD have had.  Seriously?  What a joke this game has become.  When did people stop having fun leveling their toons, rather than just trying to get to end game so fast?

These are dark times for mmo&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow.  After reading some of the comments by beta testers from your link above, I am seriously ready to /quit wow now.  They are part of the reason I no longer find WoW fun.  Crying about the heavy leveling curve.  Good grief.  One guy wanted the changes to experience to be reversed and for him to get the levels that he WOULD have had.  Seriously?  What a joke this game has become.  When did people stop having fun leveling their toons, rather than just trying to get to end game so fast?</p>
<p>These are dark times for mmo&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: saylah</title>
		<link>http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316&#038;cpage=1#comment-7150</link>
		<dc:creator>saylah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 03:06:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=316#comment-7150</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to see the mid levels skipped not the intro levels.  1 to 20 teaches me the basics of this class, and is often accompanied by different starting zones per race.  The upper tier content is generally what people are trying to achieve.  It&#039;s that mid tier content that is identical across all races and classes, and is a repeat and a grind.  Even if it was fun the first time, it isn&#039;t the 4th time.  Besides which, there are so many other grinds that must be completed to prepare an alt.  People often want alts to play another class not because they are dying to repeat content.  And even with Blizzard accelerating the leveling curve, 3 to 4 weeks to level an alt thru  content you&#039;ve done multiple times, is 4 weeks too long for me.

Make content less static so that it&#039;s less of a complete do-over and people wont want to skip it.  Consider this... I decide to roll an alt because I&#039;m bored with my main, so to ease the monotony, I should create an alt and go thru all the content I&#039;ve already seen multiple times?  That doesn&#039;t seem like a reasonable approach to my problem which is, being bored and needing a change of pace.  

Make the content more compelling and repeatable and I won&#039;t want to skip it and the  problem solved. :-)  As much as I loved AC2 repeating content is one of the reasons I never made an alt.  Gaining XP was predicated on doing repeatable quests for XP - repetition built in, assumed and required.  So now I should repeat the repeat of the repeating quests on some other character to try another class?? I think not.  The addition of dailies in WOW to earn gold - repeating the repeatables is absurd insane and something I refused to participate in.  Now that it is a major foundation of gathering gold, I&#039;d NEVER EVER roll an alt in that game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to see the mid levels skipped not the intro levels.  1 to 20 teaches me the basics of this class, and is often accompanied by different starting zones per race.  The upper tier content is generally what people are trying to achieve.  It&#8217;s that mid tier content that is identical across all races and classes, and is a repeat and a grind.  Even if it was fun the first time, it isn&#8217;t the 4th time.  Besides which, there are so many other grinds that must be completed to prepare an alt.  People often want alts to play another class not because they are dying to repeat content.  And even with Blizzard accelerating the leveling curve, 3 to 4 weeks to level an alt thru  content you&#8217;ve done multiple times, is 4 weeks too long for me.</p>
<p>Make content less static so that it&#8217;s less of a complete do-over and people wont want to skip it.  Consider this&#8230; I decide to roll an alt because I&#8217;m bored with my main, so to ease the monotony, I should create an alt and go thru all the content I&#8217;ve already seen multiple times?  That doesn&#8217;t seem like a reasonable approach to my problem which is, being bored and needing a change of pace.  </p>
<p>Make the content more compelling and repeatable and I won&#8217;t want to skip it and the  problem solved. <img src='http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />   As much as I loved AC2 repeating content is one of the reasons I never made an alt.  Gaining XP was predicated on doing repeatable quests for XP &#8211; repetition built in, assumed and required.  So now I should repeat the repeat of the repeating quests on some other character to try another class?? I think not.  The addition of dailies in WOW to earn gold &#8211; repeating the repeatables is absurd insane and something I refused to participate in.  Now that it is a major foundation of gathering gold, I&#8217;d NEVER EVER roll an alt in that game.</p>
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